Considering a purchase of the Pro model

[Rich Z]

I have been reading as much as I can about the Pro model, and came across a statement that has given me a bit of a stumble. The comment made was that you cannot use 4K/60 fps while in waypoint mode. At least I think that is what I remember. So among the questions that come to mind, is this true? And if true, are there other modes or functions where I would not be able to use 4K/60 and need to use a lesser format? Quite honestly, I just GREATLY prefer videos at 4K/60 and do not intend to buy any video recording device that cannot provide that format. I recently purchased a Skydio 2, and am pretty happy with it, but I find that trying to fly it as a regular drone with a controller (for instance inspecting the roof of my house), well, the artificial intelligence doesn't always comply with what I want it to do. It is kind of a sissy baby, IMHO, when it gets close to anything and wants to skitter off somewhere else.

Oh, another question. What is the MINIMUM amount of clearance around the Evo II Pro that the obstacle avoidance will allow you to pass through. WIth the Skydio 2, it appears that you need to have about 5 feet of clearance in any direction around the drone for the OA to allow you to pass by or through. It does not appear to be related to speed. I tried walking it through one of my bamboo groves and it pretty much balked at following me. Not that I intend to use the Evo II Pro for the same sort of thing, but I would like to know before deciding on a purchase.

And I guess just a general "If you had to make the decision to buy your Evo II again, would you?"

Thanks.

 

[herein2021]

I have been reading as much as I can about the Pro model, and came across a statement that has given me a bit of a stumble. The comment made was that you cannot use 4K/60 fps while in waypoint mode. At least I think that is what I remember. So among the questions that come to mind, is this true? And if true, are there other modes or functions where I would not be able to use 4K/60 and need to use a lesser format? Quite honestly, I just GREATLY prefer videos at 4K/60 and do not intend to buy any video recording device that cannot provide that format. I recently purchased a Skydio 2, and am pretty happy with it, but I find that trying to fly it as a regular drone with a controller (for instance inspecting the roof of my house), well, the artificial intelligence doesn't always comply with what I want it to do. It is kind of a sissy baby, IMHO, when it gets close to anything and wants to skitter off somewhere else.

Oh, another question. What is the MINIMUM amount of clearance around the Evo II Pro that the obstacle avoidance will allow you to pass through. WIth the Skydio 2, it appears that you need to have about 5 feet of clearance in any direction around the drone for the OA to allow you to pass by or through. It does not appear to be related to speed. I tried walking it through one of my bamboo groves and it pretty much balked at following me. Not that I intend to use the Evo II Pro for the same sort of thing, but I would like to know before deciding on a purchase.

And I guess just a general "If you had to make the decision to buy your Evo II again, would you?"

Thanks.

I can't answer the waypoint question since I always fly my drones manually, but I don't see why the recording framerate would matter regardless of who or what is flying the drone.

With the EVO II 6K, I rarely use 4K60FPS because it is only 8 bit footage, every other mode is 10 bit footage also 4K60FPS is cropped to around 1.2x or 1.3x. I am curious why you prefer to film videos at 4K60FPS, is it because you plan on slowing down the footage later? If not then 4K60FPS really provides no benefits over 30FPS. If you think it looks better due to the increased shutter speed you can achieve the same look by ignoring the 180 degree shutter angle rule while shooting at 4K30FPS.

As far as minimum clearance goes; the EVO II's OA gets pretty intrusive around the 10' - 15' mark to the point of potentially not being able to control the EVO. For those scenarios you simply need to turn it off.

I documented a lot more "features" and quirks in my DJI drone comparison thread here.

Would I buy another EVO II Pro 6K? Absolutely.

 

[Rich Z]

I can't answer the waypoint question since I always fly my drones manually, but I don't see why the recording framerate would matter regardless of who or what is flying the drone.

With the EVO II 6K, I rarely use 4K60FPS because it is only 8 bit footage, every other mode is 10 bit footage also 4K60FPS is cropped to around 1.2x or 1.3x. I am curious why you prefer to film videos at 4K60FPS, is it because you plan on slowing down the footage later? If not then 4K60FPS really provides no benefits over 30FPS. If you think it looks better due to the increased shutter speed you can achieve the same look by ignoring the 180 degree shutter angle rule while shooting at 4K30FPS.

As far as minimum clearance goes; the EVO II's OA gets pretty intrusive around the 10' - 15' mark to the point of potentially not being able to control the EVO. For those scenarios you simply need to turn it off.

I documented a lot more "features" and quirks in my DJI drone comparison thread here.

Would I buy another EVO II Pro 6K? Absolutely.

Maybe it is just my eyes, but when watching videos, there is a WORLD of difference between 60fps and 30fps. When watching panning shots, in particular, 30fps is actually painful for me to watch. 60fps just seems a whole lot more "cleaner" and more natural.

Interesting about the 8 bit vs 10 bit.

I have actually seen other devices that treat 60fps as just something they want to put on a comparison chart, and wind up hobbling it with restrictions on how and when you can actually use it. Of course, it usually takes some real digging to find that out as it is rarely mentioned anywhere in the manufacturer's literature.

As for a DJI comparison, well, DJI has yet to hit the mark with any offering they have had to make my credit card jump out of my wallet. So they have yet to really be seriously in the running for my $$.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[herein2021]

Maybe it is just my eyes, but when watching videos, there is a WORLD of difference between 60fps and 30fps. When watching panning shots, in particular, 30fps is actually painful for me to watch. 60fps just seems a whole lot more "cleaner" and more natural.

Interesting about the 8 bit vs 10 bit.

I have actually seen other devices that treat 60fps as just something they want to put on a comparison chart, and wind up hobbling it with restrictions on how and when you can actually use it. Of course, it usually takes some real digging to find that out as it is rarely mentioned anywhere in the manufacturer's literature.

As for a DJI comparison, well, DJI has yet to hit the mark with any offering they have had to make my credit card jump out of my wallet. So they have yet to really be seriously in the running for my $$.

Thanks for the reply.

Are you sure that it is 30FPS and not 24FPS? 24FPS is painful for me to watch most of the times; but it is nearly impossible if not completely impossible to tell the difference between 30FPS and 60FPS to the human eye when it comes to something like drone footage. Most of the time the only time you will find 60FPS footage on YouTube is if someone did not properly set their export settings to reduce the frame rate to 30FPS or it is footage from a gamer. Gameplay footage is typically 60FPS or higher but that is to support the extreme level of action and motion in some games.

I think what is actually happening is you are watching footage at 30FPS that has adhered to the 180 degree shutter angle rule. If you adhere to that rule then by design pans and fast motion will appear blurry because people try to mimic the film days when there were technical limitations to the film stock instead of just using modern technology to produce the best picture possible. I go into more detail on this topic in my thread "Why I NEVER Shoot Video at 24fps".

For your particular scenario it does not sound like you actually need 4K60FPS, instead it sounds like you like the look of 1/120s+ shutter speeds. So to mimic the "look" that you like, I would simply shoot at 4K30FPS and keep the shutter at 1/120s or higher. This will reduce motion blur and appear as smooth as 4K60FPS but without the additional hassle of larger file sizes and increased editing difficulty.

BTW, it is not uncommon to shoot at faster shutter speeds to mimic real life. Fast action sports and events typically shoot at 1/320s or higher specifically to reduce or eliminate motion blur.

Now 60FPS definitely does have its place just like 120FPS, but the main place you would use 60 or 120FPS footage is when you know you will slow it down by 50% or more later. The delivery frame rate would still be 30FPS, but the editing framerate would be higher to allow you to smoothly reduce the playback speed of the footage.

 

[Rich Z]

Are you sure that it is 30FPS and not 24FPS? 24FPS is painful for me to watch most of the times; but it is nearly impossible if not completely impossible to tell the difference between 30FPS and 60FPS to the human eye when it comes to something like drone footage. Most of the time the only time you will find 60FPS footage on YouTube is if someone did not properly set their export settings to reduce the frame rate to 30FPS or it is footage from a gamer. Gameplay footage is typically 60FPS or higher but that is to support the extreme level of action and motion in some games.

I think what is actually happening is you are watching footage at 30FPS that has adhered to the 180 degree shutter angle rule. If you adhere to that rule then by design pans and fast motion will appear blurry because people try to mimic the film days when there were technical limitations to the film stock instead of just using modern technology to produce the best picture possible. I go into more detail on this topic in my thread "Why I NEVER Shoot Video at 24fps".

For your particular scenario it does not sound like you actually need 4K60FPS, instead it sounds like you like the look of 1/120s+ shutter speeds. So to mimic the "look" that you like, I would simply shoot at 4K30FPS and keep the shutter at 1/120s or higher. This will reduce motion blur and appear as smooth as 4K60FPS but without the additional hassle of larger file sizes and increased editing difficulty.

BTW, it is not uncommon to shoot at faster shutter speeds to mimic real life. Fast action sports and events typically shoot at 1/320s or higher specifically to reduce or eliminate motion blur.

Now 60FPS definitely does have its place just like 120FPS, but the main place you would use 60 or 120FPS footage is when you know you will slow it down by 50% or more later. The delivery frame rate would still be 30FPS, but the editing framerate would be higher to allow you to smoothly reduce the playback speed of the footage.

Reasonably sure I am looking at 30fps. Not only from the MANY videos I have watched from other videographers but from my own videos that I watched raw as well as processed and rendered in Vegas Pro. This is especially noticeable with videos taken with drones. Perhaps it is the manner by which a drone needs to utilize to yaw. Since the props can't tilt, I guess the drone needs to do something awkward in order to turn on it's own vertical axis either left or right. Whatever it is, it creates a noticeable blurring of the video while panning, which 60fps seems to remove quite well. Like I said, perhaps it is my eyes, and maybe no one else's, but I see a world of difference in videos panning a scene done at 60fps compared to 30fps. So if I am buying a drone, a REQUIREMENT for me is that it does 60fps in ALL modes and methods of taking video.

And yes, I have seen videos processed at 24fps, and I normally just stop watching them REAL quick. I really don't like getting headaches. Sometimes I will buy a game to play on my PC and if I can't get at least 60fps I will get a splitting headache pretty quickly. So I tend to try using relatively new and powerful graphics cards to keep up with newer games that push the old cards beyond their limits.

As for setting a fixed faster shutter speed in a drone, honestly, I have never tried that. Heck, even with my SLRs and camcorders taking video, never really had any reason to try it. Matter of fact, I have never really understood people using ND filters on a drone in order to slow down the shutter speed for their videos. Now still photographs, different story entirely. But I tend to do mostly closeup stuff when shooting stills, so I choose aperture control nearly all of the time.

Thanks for giving me something to think about and experiment with. But something tells me I would like 60fps at 120 shutter speed better than 30fps at the same shutter speed. There is still the issue of on a moving platform having the scenery move between one frame and the next that makes a discontinuity in my vision. This would be time between one frame and the next.

Is it just me that is sensitive to this phenomenon?

Regardless, becoming an intriguing conversation.

 

[herein2021]

Reasonably sure I am looking at 30fps. Not only from the MANY videos I have watched from other videographers but from my own videos that I watched raw as well as processed and rendered in Vegas Pro. This is especially noticeable with videos taken with drones. Perhaps it is the manner by which a drone needs to utilize to yaw. Since the props can't tilt, I guess the drone needs to do something awkward in order to turn on it's own vertical axis either left or right. Whatever it is, it creates a noticeable blurring of the video while panning, which 60fps seems to remove quite well. Like I said, perhaps it is my eyes, and maybe no one else's, but I see a world of difference in videos panning a scene done at 60fps compared to 30fps. So if I am buying a drone, a REQUIREMENT for me is that it does 60fps in ALL modes and methods of taking video.

And yes, I have seen videos processed at 24fps, and I normally just stop watching them REAL quick. I really don't like getting headaches. Sometimes I will buy a game to play on my PC and if I can't get at least 60fps I will get a splitting headache pretty quickly. So I tend to try using relatively new and powerful graphics cards to keep up with newer games that push the old cards beyond their limits.

As for setting a fixed faster shutter speed in a drone, honestly, I have never tried that. Heck, even with my SLRs and camcorders taking video, never really had any reason to try it. Matter of fact, I have never really understood people using ND filters on a drone in order to slow down the shutter speed for their videos. Now still photographs, different story entirely. But I tend to do mostly closeup stuff when shooting stills, so I choose aperture control nearly all of the time.

Thanks for giving me something to think about and experiment with. But something tells me I would like 60fps at 120 shutter speed better than 30fps at the same shutter speed. There is still the issue of on a moving platform having the scenery move between one frame and the next that makes a discontinuity in my vision. This would be time between one frame and the next.

Is it just me that is sensitive to this phenomenon?

Regardless, becoming an intriguing conversation.

Well I am definitely not one to say authoritatively that 30FPS looks the same as 60FPS to you. In fact according to this article the human eye may be able to distinguish even faster frame rates. I would be curious to see if you can tell the difference between 30FPS shot at 1/320s vs 60FPS shot at 1/320s because the motion blur difference at those shutter speeds vs. something shot at 180 degrees would definitely be noticeable to me.

All current studies that I have seen say that smooth motion starts for the human eyes at 30FPS and to my eyes 30FPS is in fact smooth; you would be the first person I have encountered who would need a higher framerate to consider the frame transitions to be acceptable.

I did notice you specifically mentioned panning....panning motion blur is definitely caused by shutter speed which of course is different from framerate, and shutter speed "deficiencies" are most obvious during panning which is why I think increasing the shutter speed vs the framerate may give you the result you are looking for. As you start to get over 1/1000s the footage almost takes on a camcorder look while panning.

I have found that most panning issues with drones are due to several factors:

• Framerate Conformance Issues - As I discussed in my 24FPS post, many YouTubers deliver their content in 24FPS just because "Hollywood does it" without knowing why. The problem of course is framerate conformance issues especially if the source footage was shot at 60FPS.
• Lens Distortion - Most drone camera lenses are very wide, when you pan with a very wide angle lens footage at the edges goes from distorted to normal then back to distorted as the camera pans. This gives the footage an undesirable look. The EVO II 6K is nice in this aspect because the lens FOV is equivalent to 35mm FF so it has less distortion than most drone cameras.
• Distance From the Subject Material - A lot of drone footage is shot from high up and far away from points of reference; without a good foreground and background relationship, panning is just filling the screen with new footage in an undesirable way that doesn't really pull the viewer into the scene unless it is part of a foreground reveal.
• Shutter Speed - As we discussed previously, many YouTubers also adhere to the 180 degree shutter angle rule using ND filters; once again because "Hollywood does it" without knowing why. When shot this way, the footage gets blurry during pans.
• Stick Control - Many drone pans I have seen are simply not smooth because the operator did not keep a consistent panning speed. Jerky stops, starts, or changes of speed mid-pan can further ruin an already marginal drone movement.

I know for me personally, panning is my least favorite drone movement and so is the one I only use if nothing else will suffice. I much prefer adding the parallax effect by adding a slight orbit to the pan which for me makes a night and day difference. It reestablishes the foreground background relationship and looks much more natural to me. I would also prefer to combine other drone movements if a pan is needed such as dolly in/out, or tilt up/down just to try to add back a realistic feel to the pan.

I 100% agree regarding the ND filters, in fact I wrote a post on that one as well titled "Why I NEVER use ND filters with drone cameras".

 

[GeekOnTheWing]

Maybe it is just my eyes, but when watching videos, there is a WORLD of difference between 60fps and 30fps. When watching panning shots, in particular, 30fps is actually painful for me to watch. 60fps just seems a whole lot more "cleaner" and more natural.

Interesting about the 8 bit vs 10 bit.

I have actually seen other devices that treat 60fps as just something they want to put on a comparison chart, and wind up hobbling it with restrictions on how and when you can actually use it. Of course, it usually takes some real digging to find that out as it is rarely mentioned anywhere in the manufacturer's literature.

As for a DJI comparison, well, DJI has yet to hit the mark with any offering they have had to make my credit card jump out of my wallet. So they have yet to really be seriously in the running for my $$.

Thanks for the reply.

I've shot essentially the same videos at both speeds, and there is in fact a world of difference. I suppose whether it matters to an individual is a matter of their own tastes, and possibly their own vision. But I can certainly see the difference.

Most recently I shot a video in 30fps because I forgot to reset it to 60fps after a firmware update, and it took all of a second for me to realize it when I viewed the files. It had me wanting to go back and re-record the whole thing. Resolve managed to smooth things out a bit somehow; but it's still noticeable to me in the rendered video (albeit less so).

I don't know about the waypoints mode as I've never used it. The modes I have used all seem to preserve the manual selections.

 

[Rich Z]

Well, it seems to be a moot point right now. Was just reading that rather extensive thread about the issue between V1 and V2 versions of the Evo II and the new controller coming out. Just seems foolish to me to be buying a V1 version right now. My guess is that eventually they will offer a package with both the V2 Evo and the new controller, so I believe my best bet is to just wait for the dust to settle. Honestly, I never have been all that keen about using my cell phone with a controller. Just can't see details well enough in that small screen.

Meanwhile I can do more research about any design compromises that may have been made when shooting at 4K/60fps.

But thanks for the discussion surrounding my question. Gave me some things to play with now with my other equipment.

 

[Rich Z]

I've shot essentially the same videos at both speeds, and there is in fact a world of difference. I suppose whether it matters to an individual is a matter of their own tastes, and possibly their own vision. But I can certainly see the difference.

Most recently I shot a video in 30fps because I forgot to reset it to 60fps after a firmware update, and it took all of a second for me to realize it when I viewed the files. It had me wanting to go back and re-record the whole thing. Resolve managed to smooth things out a bit somehow; but it's still noticeable to me in the rendered video (albeit less so).

I don't know about the waypoints mode as I've never used it. The modes I have used all seem to preserve the manual selections.

BTW, thanks for making me feel like I am not some sort of freak of nature.

 

[GeekOnTheWing]

BTW, thanks for making me feel like I am not some sort of freak of nature.

I have to think it's just differences in individual perception. For me, the flickering doesn't completely go away until the neighborhood of ~70fps. For some people, it's more than twice that. Others can't tell over 30. For me, 60 is tolerable. 30 is maddening. 24 is walk out of the theater.

 

[UasDriver]

differences in individual perception

audio is much the same, I'm totally fine at 30fps, and anything over 12khz is down 60db

 

[herein2021]

@GeekOnTheWing @Rich Z How do you watch any Hollywood movies? They are nearly without exception shot at 24FPS. For me even some Hollywood movies when panning is maddening.....the stutter and blurriness are hard to take, but that's the only time it really gets to me. Now on YouTube I'd say close to 50% of the videos that I see shot by content creators if they are panning or moving the camera is nearly unwatchable due to improper use of 24FPS to me. That percentage rises to around 90% when it comes to drone footage. I've seen some incredible drone videos on YouTube that were completely ruined by the framerate.

 

[GeekOnTheWing]

@GeekOnTheWing @Rich Z How do you watch any Hollywood movies? They are nearly without exception shot at 24FPS. For me even some Hollywood movies when panning is maddening.....the stutter and blurriness are hard to take, but that's the only time it really gets to me. Now on YouTube I'd say close to 50% of the videos that I see shot by content creators if they are panning or moving the camera is nearly unwatchable due to improper use of 24FPS to me. That percentage rises to around 90% when it comes to drone footage. I've seen some incredible drone videos on YouTube that were completely ruined by the framerate.

I agree. And the answer is that I haven't been to a theater since my goddaughter was little. I took her to see some cartoon about a rat who worked in a restaurant. I guess it was about 15 years ago.

Movies shot in 24FPS give me a headache. I prefer streaming, which is trending toward higher frame rates these days.

What seems bizarre to me is how many people cry long and loud when digital versions of films increase the frame rate to something watchable. You'd think someone painted a a Groucho Marx mustache and eyebrows on the Mona Lisa the way they bawl over it.

But as we used to say in Brooklyn, sauseech his own.

 

[Rich Z]

@GeekOnTheWing @Rich Z How do you watch any Hollywood movies? They are nearly without exception shot at 24FPS. For me even some Hollywood movies when panning is maddening.....the stutter and blurriness are hard to take, but that's the only time it really gets to me. Now on YouTube I'd say close to 50% of the videos that I see shot by content creators if they are panning or moving the camera is nearly unwatchable due to improper use of 24FPS to me. That percentage rises to around 90% when it comes to drone footage. I've seen some incredible drone videos on YouTube that were completely ruined by the framerate.

Actually, that has never really bothered me for some reason. I have a 70 inch 4K Sony TV and sit 16 ft. away from it, so perhaps there is something in that formula that just works for me. That being said, I did watch a movie supposedly recorded at 60fps (some Will Smith flick called Gemini Man, if I remember correctly) and I REALLY like watching that on the screen. It just seemed real easy on my eyes, although I haven't really noticed any discomfort with slower frame rates. I don't know, maybe the refresh rate of the TV screen itself has a bearing. Off hand I don't know what that may be. Perhaps there are settings I enabled that produce the so-called "Soap Opera Effect" and I just find that pleasing to my eyes. I really don't like motion blur AT ALL.

As for going to an actual theater, heck, I can't remember the last time I've been to one. Guess I just got tired of having my shoes stick to the floor from the spilled butter from someone else's popcorn.

BTW, I am using a 27" (or is it 28"?) 4K monitor on my PC that I use for watching YouTube videos and those I generate myself. Refresh rate is 59.997 Hz. So maybe there are a bunch of variables at work affecting how I perceive videos of particular devices. Maybe a faster refresh rate or even a newer generation that perhaps enable that Soap Opera Effect and I wouldn't notice the differences between 60fps and 30fps. And in such a case, I would not be so insistent on only shooting at 60fps whenever possible.

But push come to shove, I take videos (whether from drones, SLRs, or camcorders) for my own enjoyment, so my target is to please myself when I watch them. So I tend to use my own yardstick when measuring the enjoyment (or tolerance) level of what I am watching or producing to watch. Maybe a lot of other people don't care about the framerate and motion blur. But I do, and I guess that is what matters most to me.

Inconsequential differences to many, I suppose.

 

[Rubik3x]

I too like the look of 60fps motion shots. But with the E3P your choice will be between 10-bit color (4K/30/LOG) or super smooth pans (60fps) and 8-bit color. I generally follow the 180-deg rule and use the ND filter on bright days and shoot 4K/30/LOG too get 10-bit color (I hate color banding). If I need to pan, I'm careful to pan very slowly and smoothly. But it's much better to do as "herein2021" says and slide sideways to give the audience a sense of perspective.
One of my favorite YT creators shoots gorgeous 4K videos of some of the most beautiful places on the planet. However, he generally uses a tripod and pans, very slowly. When he is in a boat or airplane shooting out the side, his videos take on a whole new sense of realism and 3D perspective.
As far as using a faster shutter to smooth out pans, I'll have to compare for myself sunny day panning shots with several settings:
--4K/30fps at 1/60s plus ND filter (my usual)
--4K/60fps at 1/120s plus ND filter (Rich's favorite)
--4K/30fps with fast shutter and no filter (herein's favorite)

 

[kenautelevo2pro]

why isn't anyone shooting in 6k, am I wasting my time using 6k/30?

 

[GeekOnTheWing]

why isn't anyone shooting in 6k, am I wasting my time using 6k/30?

I think it's a bit overkill for most screens. I'd rather have 4K with the higher FPS. That's makes more visible difference to me.

 

[UasDriver]

I've rendered some of my 4k 30f at 2k 120f. like the results, does that "fix" the framerate sensitive eyes?

 

[Tiger64]

I only use 6k if i am thinking i might need to crop in post.
My monitors and tv are only 4k , the files for 6k are huge, and takes more time for my pc to process.

 

[GeekOnTheWing]

I've rendered some of my 4k 30f at 2k 120f. like the results, does that "fix" the framerate sensitive eyes?

Some editing software can smooth it out a bit even at the same framerate.