Welcome, Autel Pilots!
Join our free Autel drone community today!
Join Us

Why I NEVER use ND Filters With Drone Cameras

Just because your projects don't require ND filters, doesnt mean others don't.

It was mentioned that long exposure shots of waterfalls require a tripod, drones move around too much, this isnt true. With a fast moving waterfall, its possible to get whispy water at 1/40 of a second, which is only possible during the day if you have an ND filter. You can do even longer long exposure photos by combinging two shots. 1 shot at say 1 second exposure, and 1 shot at 1/400th of a second for the foreground. That way you have the landscape in focus/sharp with the water whispy. essentially a bracketed shot but for exposure times rather than overall exposure.

Example with a 1st gen Mavic Mini that only shoots jpg:
1642872715320.png
 
Just because your projects don't require ND filters, doesnt mean others don't.

It was mentioned that long exposure shots of waterfalls require a tripod, drones move around too much, this isnt true. With a fast moving waterfall, its possible to get whispy water at 1/40 of a second, which is only possible during the day if you have an ND filter. You can do even longer long exposure photos by combinging two shots. 1 shot at say 1 second exposure, and 1 shot at 1/400th of a second for the foreground. That way you have the landscape in focus/sharp with the water whispy. essentially a bracketed shot but for exposure times rather than overall exposure.

Example with a 1st gen Mavic Mini that only shoots jpg:
View attachment 12938
Wow, that looks like a Thomas Kinkade painting!!!
 
Just because your projects don't require ND filters, doesnt mean others don't.

It was mentioned that long exposure shots of waterfalls require a tripod, drones move around too much, this isnt true. With a fast moving waterfall, its possible to get whispy water at 1/40 of a second, which is only possible during the day if you have an ND filter. You can do even longer long exposure photos by combinging two shots. 1 shot at say 1 second exposure, and 1 shot at 1/400th of a second for the foreground. That way you have the landscape in focus/sharp with the water whispy. essentially a bracketed shot but for exposure times rather than overall exposure.

Example with a 1st gen Mavic Mini that only shoots jpg:
View attachment 12938

I 100% agree that if you are getting what you consider acceptable results with long exposures for your type of work then this is a good example of where an ND filter is actually needed. I would say almost 90% of the reasons I've seen so far for why people use ND filters with their drones are scenarios where simply increasing the shutter speed or stopping down the aperture would achieve the same result.

Also, keep in mind that my post is titled Why "I" never use ND filters with drone cameras, I never said no one needs to use ND filters with drone cameras or that everyone should not use ND filters with drone cameras. Also, in this thread I stated that I don't consider long exposures with drone cameras to be able to produce commercially viable footage meaning large prints/commercial prints or gallery quality; that certainly does not mean that it would not be good enough for Instagram or online but prints would reveal the inherent softness of slower shutter speeds from a drone platform. Hand blending two different shutter speeds would improve the results but I still doubt the final image would stand up to the printing process.

Commercial print landscape photographers like Peter Lik use 100MP+ cameras on large heavy tripods locked down with additional weights just to get the stability they need for their landscape footage; there is no drone currently on the market that will match that type of stability in the air.

As a result of the responses on this thread I definitely think there are scenarios where ND filters with drones are required, but none of them are scenarios that I encounter for my work:

  • Long Exposures - As I have mentioned multiple times, if you are getting what you consider acceptable results with long exposures and drone platforms then absolutely an ND filter is required to achieve that
  • Customer Requirements - One poster stated they have a commercial customer who mandates certain shutter speeds. I have never had a customer like this but in that scenario an ND filter may be the only way to achieve a desired shutter speed during daylight
  • Video Motion Blur - I personally think this is not a valid concern considering how little motion blur you will get with a wide angle drone camera 100's of feet away from the subject but if you absolutely insist on sticking to the 180 degree shutter angle rule then yes you will need an ND filter during daylight to achieve that
Like I said, I have also seen many responses that I do not consider valid at all and they are typically just people repeating what they have heard from other people or from YouTubers:

  • Video Motion Blur - Like I said, I think this one is the most common one as people try to replicate Hollywood and the film days as they film their projects where the motion blur difference with/without an ND filter is practically indiscernible
  • Reduce Glare - ND filters will in no way whatsoever reduce glare but people try to use them to do so anyway
  • Photography Lens Distortion - This makes no sense to me because all you need to do is increase the shutter speed to enable use of the optimal aperture which will in turn reduce lens distortion on variable aperture drone cameras
  • Video Lens Distortion - In my opinion drone camera makers way oversharpen their cameras so I actually use lens distortion to my advantage by shooting at F11 to soften the image; I can always add sharpness back in post if so desired and even if I did choose to shoot at a lower aperture in daylight I would simply increase the shutter speed since I don't care about video motion blur as I previously stated
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rizzo08
This may be of interest to some in this thread.


That's a great find and says pretty much the same thing I have been saying when it comes to video but perhaps a bit more elegantly. Unfortunately for every video like that, there is 200 more that say you must use 180 degrees.

I will also add that everyone is saying they want more cinematic footage.......IMO the color grade, the composition, the audio track, the camera movement, and the lighting are all what combine to create "cinematic" footage...the shutter speed has nothing to do with it.
 
Also, keep in mind that my post is titled Why "I" never use ND filters with drone cameras, I never said no one needs to use ND filters with drone cameras or that everyone should not use ND filters with drone cameras.
Except you did here, which is how I found this thread:

you said quote "you don't need them"

But yes that mavic mini shot is not high enough quality for print. But that technique can be used on more expensive higher quality drones for printable results.

and yes I am a professional:

So I am not some amateur, I do know what I am talking about at least a little bit ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: gski and herein2021
Except you did here, which is how I found this thread:

you said quote "you don't need them"

But yes that mavic mini shot is not high enough quality for print. But that technique can be used on more expensive higher quality drones for printable results.

and yes I am a professional:

So I am not some amateur, I do know what I am talking about at least a little bit ;)

My statement "you don't need them" was for the OP and based on the responses from this thread I figured I had a >90% chance of being right :) since very few people are shooting true long exposures or traffic contrails with drones; and technically the OP still hasn't confirmed their planned use falls into one of the few use cases where they really are needed so it remains to be seen if I was wrong. Even in that thread I did not say no one should be using ND filters but you are correct; to cover all bases I should have said you "probably" don't need them.

BTW I definitely think your reference image was very nice; landscape photography is my favorite type of photography but I only shoot it for personal use because there is simply no money in it for 99% of us. A few select individuals such as NatGeo photographers and well known names like Peter Lik have made it work, but for the rest of us we look elsewhere for paid professional work.

I also have absolutely nothing against ND filters unlike some people seem to think when reading this thread. I use them daily for ground photography and videography work where they are an absolute necessity for shallow DOF and proper shutter speeds in many scenarios; but it seems like no one ever discusses the other side of the ND story specifically for drone use which is why I started this thread.
 
I see a lot of posts regarding ND filters for people's drone cameras and each time I ask myself why; why are people buying ND filters for their drone cameras, risking their gimbal motors, potentially damaging their camera lens, etc. etc. for an almost imperceptible amount of additional motion blur if any at all. I have never used an ND filter on any drone that I have owned and I have worked hundreds of projects for paying customers over the years; not a single one has said my footage doesn't have the proper motion blur or asked for a reshoot or a refund because they could tell I didn't have an ND filter on my drone. Sure, if you are shooting the next Hollywood blockbuster and using hexacopters to lift $100K worth of cinema cameras into the air then an ND filter just makes sense.....but for Youtube, Instagram, Vimeo; where your video will probably most commonly be viewed at 320P on a 5" cell phone screen? It makes no sense at all to me.

I know a lot of people use ND filters with their drone cameras but in my opinion I think a lot of people use them just because they have read somewhere that they are supposed to use them based on the 180 degree shutter angle rule (i.e. shutter speed "should" be 2x the frame rate). But if you study the reasons why that rule came about you may reach the same conclusion that I did; which is that it doesn't make sense for drone footage.

The shutter angle/shutter speed rule is meant to reduce or eliminate flicker in certain scenarios such as at night under street lights. Well when you think about it how often is a drone in that situation? The rule is also meant to ensure that there is the "proper" amount of motion blur during fast camera movements; once again, how often is a drone close enough to an object for it to matter? So what about fast moving objects other than the drone.....once again, how often is the drone close enough to that object for the motion blur difference to really be noticeable? And if you still want that barely noticeable motion blur that you feel like you are missing...it takes seconds to add it from within your NLE as you are editing the video.

So if there's not much benefit to using ND filters on drones are there any downsides? Sure there are:

  • Another Lens - ND filters are another lens between the camera and the scene which means its another thing that can get smudged, dirty or dusty, and can affect the incoming quality of light
  • Image Degradation - Cheap ND filters can add a color cast, corner softness, chromatic aberration, and other problems to the image the camera records. Even the most expensive ND filters out there tend to add a slightly green cast.
  • Gimbal Motor Burnout - This was the main reason I chose not to use ND filters years ago. Back then they were heavy and not designed for drones. People were reporting their gimbal motors burning out trying to support the additional weight of the ND filter on the front of the camera. What may feel nearly weightless to humans is still an additional load on the gimbal motor that was not accounted for in the original design of the drone's gimbal motors.
  • Cost - ND filter sets for drones are not cheap, they are easy to break and to lose and offer marginal if any benefit to the actual footage. Drones have a very limited lifespan (the avg is 3yrs), so almost every accessory that you buy for one is wasted if you crash it or get a new drone.
  • Setup Time - They add to the drone setup time. You have to figure out the proper ND filter based on the current ambient lighting situation and there's always the chance it could change drastically while you are in the air (i.e. the sun goes behind heavy cloud cover or you fly beneath tree cover).
  • Camera Modification - If the ND filter has to replace the UV filter you are breaking the original factory sealed filter which will increase the chances of getting dirt, moisture, and other undesirables behind the lens. The better solutions slip over the UV filter....but then there's the weight problem.
So after looking at all of the pros and cons I personally just ignore the shutter angle / shutter speed rules and increase my shutter speed as needed to properly expose the scene. With a drone like the EVO II 6K at F11 ISO 100 I can practically point it at the sun and still not be much over 1/200s.

Another thing people then frequently say is..."but they've seen xyz's footage on YouTube and it looks like it is stuttering....if the YouTuber had ND filters and had properly followed the 180 degree shutter angle rule their footage would not have stuttered and been choppy". This is another common misconception; the shutter speed does not make the footage stutter, the typical cause of stuttering YouTube footage is due to whoever shot the footage incorrectly conforming the footage in post to the timeline framerate they intended to render to. Many times people shoot at 60FPS then try to export the timeline to 24FPS.....without properly configuring their NLE to account for the fact that 24FPS is not 50% of 60FPS which brings me to my next point which is that I don't understand why people shoot in 24FPS....but that's another topic/rant for a different day.

My simple advice to get the best footage out of these drones in bright daylight; shoot at 60FPS or 30FPS, use a 30FPS timeline (29.97FPS), render your footage at 30FPS (29.97FPS), push the F stop to F11 and keep the ISO at 100, then use whatever shutter speed is needed to properly expose the footage and leave the ND filters to the regular cameras or the Hollywood blockbusters. BTW, I have absolutely nothing against ND filters themselves, I use them nearly daily with all of my other cameras to control the shutter speed either for video or for photography; its just that when it comes to drones I can't think of a single use case where they would provide any value whatsoever.

IN CASE YOU MISSED IT

Why I Never Shoot Video At 24FPS

Why I Never Use CPL Filters With Drone Cameras

Autel EVO II Pro - User Experience from a DJI User

EXPLORE YOUR WORLD: An Autel EVO II Pro 6K Cinematic Story
I'm a nature photographer and I never use ND filters unless I'm using a tripod on a sunny day and I want to smooth out the motion of water, traffic, or people without over-exposing and blowing out the photo. Otherwise I would never use one. I tried ND filters on my old Mavic Pro one or twice and never used them again. If you dont know how to control your aperture, ISO, and shutter speed, an ND filter most likely wont help you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: herein2021
I'm a nature photographer and I never use ND filters unless I'm using a tripod on a sunny day and I want to smooth out the motion of water, traffic, or people without over-exposing and blowing out the photo. Otherwise I would never use one. I tried ND filters on my old Mavic Pro one or twice and never used them again. If you dont know how to control your aperture, ISO, and shutter speed, an ND filter most likely wont help you.

I have used them on a tripod for nature photography as well, especially for waterfalls but living in FL there are no waterfalls so I mainly use them for portrait work.

I shoot a lot of fashion, swimsuit, and sunset work and ND filters are essential to bring the shutter speed down to the flash sync speed when shooting into a sunset or on a bright day. Of course HSS is an option and sometimes I combine HSS with ND filters but that's pretty far removed from anything a drone camera has to deal with.

For drones I have yet to encounter a paying client who has a scenario where an ND filter is needed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Theborg
I have used them on a tripod for nature photography as well, especially for waterfalls but living in FL there are no waterfalls so I mainly use them for portrait work.

I shoot a lot of fashion, swimsuit, and sunset work and ND filters are essential to bring the shutter speed down to the flash sync speed when shooting into a sunset or on a bright day. Of course HSS is an option and sometimes I combine HSS with ND filters but that's pretty far removed from anything a drone camera has to deal with.

For drones I have yet to encounter a paying client who has a scenario where an ND filter is needed.
Interesting - portraits and fashion photography is a whole different science - I'm always after the natural light in early mornings. I very rarely use a flash. I absolutely agree with you - I dont see where drone photography benefits from using an ND filter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: herein2021
I just got around to buying the "official" Autel set of ND filters (4, 8, 16, 32).

I doubt I'll ever need them, but I'm getting more into landscape photography lately, so I might. I also had a gift card for Empire Drone, so why not?

I do use a CPL filter pretty often, though. I probably should use it more for the snowscapes.

Richard
 
The "180 degree rule" is different from a "180 degree shutter."

Shutter speed half the duration of the frame rate (1/60 for 30fps) is a 180 degree shutter. This has to do with old film cameras and their rotary shutters.

The 180 degree rule is also referred to as "crossing the line" and is a blocking rule concerning the space between two subjects in the frame. 180-degree rule - Wikipedia

As for the need for ND. It's preferable to use a standard of around a 180 degree shutter for video. It has nothing to do with being "cinematic" it has everything to do with adding enough motion blur on each individual frame to smooth the motion at "standard" frame rates. As the frame rate goes up, you have less and less need for the motion blur and it becomes less of an issue. BUT if you shoot 24fps video with a 1/1000th shutter and have any kind of medium-to-fast motion in the scene, it WILL look "stuttery." This can be intentional (see Saving Private Ryan's battle scenes) to add a frenetic feel to your footage, but it looks like crap on a smooth aerial establishing shot. If you're shooting at 60fps it's less of an issue, but it's definitely noticeable (more so to some people than others) the slower your shutter speed.

It's fine to not shoot with a 180 degree shutter if you like the way it looks or have a specific creative purpose to it, but to flatly say "ND isn't necessary" because you don't need a 180 degree shutter is hogwash. I do a lot of aerial (and ground-based) videography for TV and higher-end corporate and my clients would kick me in the head if I handed them stuttery 30fps video shot with a really high shutter speed.
 
The "180 degree rule" is different from a "180 degree shutter."

Shutter speed half the duration of the frame rate (1/60 for 30fps) is a 180 degree shutter. This has to do with old film cameras and their rotary shutters.

The 180 degree rule is also referred to as "crossing the line" and is a blocking rule concerning the space between two subjects in the frame. 180-degree rule - Wikipedia

I am not sure if you were referring to me or to another poster with your definition of the "180 degree rule", clearly this thread is referring to the 180 degree shutter angle rule (which I stated many times throughout this thread) vs splitting a room into 180 degrees. I am not sure if you are focusing on the fact that "rule" is a part of that statement but that really is splitting hairs at this point. To me it's widely accepted enough to the point that it could be considered one of the "rules" of videography as further evidenced here and here. The reality is that the first "rule" of photography and video is that there are no rules so getting stuck on the word makes even less sense in that context.

As for the need for ND. It's preferable to use a standard of around a 180 degree shutter for video. It has nothing to do with being "cinematic" it has everything to do with adding enough motion blur on each individual frame to smooth the motion at "standard" frame rates. As the frame rate goes up, you have less and less need for the motion blur and it becomes less of an issue. BUT if you shoot 24fps video with a 1/1000th shutter and have any kind of medium-to-fast motion in the scene, it WILL look "stuttery." This can be intentional (see Saving Private Ryan's battle scenes) to add a frenetic feel to your footage, but it looks like crap on a smooth aerial establishing shot. If you're shooting at 60fps it's less of an issue, but it's definitely noticeable (more so to some people than others) the slower your shutter speed.


People's definition of "cinematic" typically is to match the settings that Hollywood tells them are important vs. doing their own testing and reaching their own conclusions. I personally also do not shoot at 24FPS unless I have a client that requires it, and in this post I go into more details on why, but I have yet to see drone YouTube footage that looked stuttery due to the shutter speed alone. Somewhere in this thread I posted a high shutter speed test video and am still waiting for someone to point out where the shutter speed made the footage stutter.

It's fine to not shoot with a 180 degree shutter if you like the way it looks or have a specific creative purpose to it, but to flatly say "ND isn't necessary" because you don't need a 180 degree shutter is hogwash. I do a lot of aerial (and ground-based) videography for TV and higher-end corporate and my clients would kick me in the head if I handed them stuttery 30fps video shot with a really high shutter speed.

Nowhere in this thread have I personally said that no one needs ND filters and that no one needs a 180 degree shutter angle for their drone footage. What I have actually said and titled this thread is why I never use an ND filter with drone cameras and multiples times I have encouraged readers of this thread to simply perform their own testing and reach their own conclusions.

When a client is paying enough for a project and the budget justifies that Arri Alexa and a hexacopter then sure, ND filter away...my point is that for the typical YouTube content creator flying a consumer/prosumer class drone, using drone ND filters and following the 180 degree shutter angle rule because someone else said so is more work than its probably worth and is not something I choose to do even with commercial paying clients.

BTW I have shot commercial drone footage for a few Fortune 500 companies, local and state governments, corporate customers, news stations, live events, etc. and not one has said they need a reshoot because the shutter speed was too high. But if a client does hire me and they have a specific requirements list and it includes following the 180 degree shutter angle rule and they have a budget that justifies their requirements then I'll be first in line at the Amazon checkout counter ordering drone ND filters and expensing the purchase price as a line item on the client's invoice.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Theborg
BTW I have shot commercial drone footage for a few Fortune 500 companies, local and state governments, corporate customers, news stations, live events, etc. and not one has said they need a reshoot because the shutter speed was too high. But if a client does hire me and they have a specific requirements list and it includes following the 180 degree shutter angle rule and they have a budget that justifies their requirements then I'll be first in line at the Amazon checkout counter ordering drone ND filters and expensing the purchase price as a line item on the client's invoice.

I‘ve never seen a call sheet that said “footage needs to be properly exposed” or “footage needs to be in focus” or “footage should not be a jello-y mess” either. A shutter speed around 1/2 the framerate is par for the course and one of those things the director shouldn’t have to tell you as a camera op.

My experience is a lot of buyers of drone footage even at large companies don’t notice or don‘t care. It’s people who‘ve worked in film and television who will notice and care. Spending the time to do things right even when it might not make a huge difference is a sign of craftsmanship.

Yes, on slow swoopy drone footage a faster shutter speed probably won’t be overly noticeable and you can get away with a higher shutter speed. I can also get away with a really sloppy timeline on my editing projects too… the client will never know.

Also, I find it hilarious you think the 5 seconds it takes to take the right ND out of the case and pop it on the front of the camera is “work.” You’ve spent more time telling us why you don’t use them than the time a busy operator would spend installing ND in a lengthy career.

You don’t even have to go buy them anymore. Most of the “bundles” these days come with a set of ND at least up to ND32. Both Autel and DJI do anyway.

In any case, do what makes you happy…
 
A shutter speed around 1/2 the framerate is par for the course and one of those things the director shouldn’t have to tell you as a camera op.

You have that backwards..."par for the course" in your book is the framerate is 1/2 the shutter speed.

My experience is a lot of buyers of drone footage even at large companies don’t notice or don‘t care. It’s people who‘ve worked in film and television who will notice and care. Spending the time to do things right even when it might not make a huge difference is a sign of craftsmanship.

So you start off saying the same thing I've already said and experienced first hand, then you make an unsubstantiated claim that other industry professionals "will notice and care"....got it. So your definition of "right" is the only one that is supposed to work for everyone? Tell that to the Hardcore Henry producer who used GoPros to shoot a feature film, or Unsane a feature length film shot on an iPhone, they weren't using cinema cameras so they must have done something wrong and failed their par for the course final exam. There is no "right" or "wrong" in the creative industry, there's just what works for you and if you delivered what your client requested.

Yes, on slow swoopy drone footage a faster shutter speed probably won’t be overly noticeable and you can get away with a higher shutter speed.

Most drone footage from your typical YT content producer is slow and swoopy; the fact remains however that "you can get away with" a higher shutter speed regardless of the motion in the frame if you so choose.

Also, I find it hilarious you think the 5 seconds it takes to take the right ND out of the case and pop it on the front of the camera is “work.” You’ve spent more time telling us why you don’t use them than the time a busy operator would spend installing ND in a lengthy career.

I find it equally hilarious that you care about how I spend my free time. The whole point of a forum is to discuss topics.

In any case, do what makes you happy…

I appreciate your approval to let me shoot the way I've already been shooting since 2014, it means a lot to me :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saladshooter
You have that backwards..."par for the course" in your book is the framerate is 1/2 the shutter speed.

At 30 fps, a frame is taken every 1/30th of a second. A 1/60th shutter opens and closes in 1/60th of a second.

1/60th of a second is HALF of 1/30th of a second.

Shutter speed should be half the frame rate. What I said.
 
At 30 fps, a frame is taken every 1/30th of a second. A 1/60th shutter opens and closes in 1/60th of a second.

1/60th of a second is HALF of 1/30th of a second.

Shutter speed should be half the frame rate. What I said.

We really are splitting hairs here, but its great, I love a great dialogue :cool: . You do realize that 1/60th of a second when referring to speed is twice the speed of 1/30th of a second right? You are defining the shutter speed as being how long the shutter is open which is not the shutter speed it is the shutter duration.

To get the shutter speed you have to invert the shutter duration (1/30s) which means your shutter's speed is 30x per second. So, once again you had it backwards; according to the 180 degree shutter angle rule the shutter should open and close 60x per second which is 2x the framerate at 30FPS. When the shutter is opening and closing 60x per second (shutter speed) the shutter is only open for 1/60th of a second (shutter duration). Where you went wrong is you confused shutter speed with shutter duration.

So lets split those hairs even further; your original statement was the shutter speed (number of times per second that the shutter opens and closes) should be half the frame rate, so at 30FPS the shutter should open and close 15x per second (30/2 = 15) which means you are saying the shutter duration should be 1/15s........see how that is backwards now?

The shutter duration is more important in the photography world especially when you start talking about things like long exposures where you might hold the shutter open for multiple seconds. In the video world the actual number of times the shutter opens and closes per second (shutter speed) which is the denominator in that 1/x display is more important because of the relationship between framerates and shutter speed.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rizzo08
We really are splitting hairs here, but its great, I love a great dialogue :cool: . You do realize that 1/60th of a second when referring to speed is twice the speed of 1/30th of a second right? You are defining the shutter speed as being how long the shutter is open which is not the shutter speed it is the shutter duration.

To get the shutter speed you have to invert the shutter duration (1/30s) which means your shutter's speed is 30x per second. So, once again you had it backwards; according to the 180 degree shutter angle rule the shutter should open and close 60x per second which is 2x the framerate at 30FPS. When the shutter is opening and closing 60x per second (shutter speed) the shutter is only open for 1/60th of a second (shutter duration). Where you went wrong is you confused shutter speed with shutter duration.

So lets split those hairs even further; your original statement was the shutter speed (number of times per second that the shutter opens and closes) should be half the frame rate, so at 30FPS the shutter should open and close 15x per second (30/2 = 15) which means you are saying the shutter duration should be 1/15s........see how that is backwards now?

The shutter duration is more important in the photography world especially when you start talking about things like long exposures where you might hold the shutter open for multiple seconds. In the video world the actual number of times the shutter opens and closes per second (shutter speed) which is the denominator in that 1/x display is more important because of the relationship between framerates and shutter speed.
😂😂😂 now that is not splitting the hair, but getting boldy...
 

Latest threads

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
11,229
Messages
102,660
Members
9,819
Latest member
sky3d