A newbie to the discussions here, so don't know if this has been a topic: Does anyone, anywhere, know if Evo II birds will be upgradable to comply with FAA RID? And, if so, does anyone have any idea how much it will cost? I called the FAA and a guy name of Paul said "abou 20 bucks," but how does he know?
Dave Pitman
Well-Known Member
Maxwell Lee, the owner of Autel Robotics, says that RID capability is built in and can be implemented via firmware. Whether or not that is all correct is unknown. But broadcasting a small data snipit along with everything else is trivial for these craft.
except that's not what he said. what he said is the engineers have assured me they have it future-proofed and then he went on to say he doesn't know exactly what that means. he also said they are aware of the remote id issue. the interviewer threw out all the details and maxwell dodge them so i can see how someone would believe that autel has announced "the hardware is already on board and it just needs to be implemented thru software" as soon as the faa tells them what they need. lol lol
look, if i was autel i would not admit i have no idea if the drones you bought today can be flown tomorrow so i read between the lines with all the yes yes yes's from maxwell in response to the question; ymmv. if it were already there, he would have said our drones have rid inside and we just need to wait for.... that's my interpretation.
if the faa enforces a law that says a "small data snipit" is all that needs to be broadcast then perhaps. unfortunately the law will more than just "broadcasting a small data snipit."
at this point, no one has a good idea on what will become of rid so it's hard to say. it could be as easy as a $20 module, it could be a sw upgrade, it could be something that cannot be complied with by any drone on the market today. we just don't know yet. it's complicated.
Dave Pitman
Well-Known Member
If you think that amount of information contained in the data package (whatever the FAA wants it to be) is in any way comparable to the amount of data required to stream1080 or even 720 resolution video to your smart device, you really have no grasp of the technology. I'm not trying to be rude, but broadcasting the location of the craft, the RC, who the registered owner of the craft is, amounts to nothing by comparison to the live video we enjoy.
The actual problem is the ability of the drone to be able to broadcast the location to the level of accuracy that may be required. DJI craft have been able to broadcast the information that the FAA will likely want since the Phantom 3 Pro/ Inspire 1 era, probably earlier. It is relatively low tech compared to today. But the gnss receivers in these craft are not any better than the one in your phone and may be incapable of providing the accuracy the FAA is currently talking about.
So when Mr. Lee says that the engineers have told him that the ability to broadcast the relatively small data set that will be required is already in the craft, there is no reason to think that it is not. That doesn't mean that Autel will "choose" to enable it on legacy craft. And, if a more precise gnss is required, then only the RTK models will be able to do that.
DJI aircraft are in exactly the same boat.
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I have zero faith in anything the FAA says. They don't know diddly. And IF it is a physical part that needs to be retrofitted, how much will it weigh? As we all recall, when the FAA first came up with the remote ID notion, the gizmo was going to weight a couple of pounds and cost $1600. General aviation pilots hit the roof and the boys inside the Beltway were inundated with all negatives. Back to the drawing board for them, and since they are not manufacturers, they have NO idea what it might take. In fact, those guys have only been flying desks for the last 20 years. If a new drone is requited, I am out of the game, but they don't need me. I will limit my flying to rubber powered model aircraft and gliders, no R/C.
If anyone is still wondering… I asked Autel directly and surprisingly got somewhat direct answers.
1. I asked about firmware/software updates regarding RID and whether they would stand behind their current models (evo 2 pro).
A: “The responsibility will fall to the pilot to purchase a product module before Sep 2023 for any currently existing models. Future products manufactured after Sep 2022 will be equipped with Remote ID, legacy models will not.”
This is unacceptable to me. Skydio says directly on their site that they will meet this requirement with a software/firmware update. DJI already has it covered on some drones - so they say. I don’t quite understand this tech myself, but I’m confused how you guys are discussing the fact that it’s impossible to retrofit drones when other companies have promised to comply - or in a few cases for DJI - the company says they are already technically compliant. If it’s a matter of accuracy, I think that’s nonsense. The accuracy we see on a screen while flying is accurate enough for the intent of this law (I would assume).
2. I actually asked when Evo 3 was coming out - and I told them I didn’t actually expect an answer but that rumors were abounding.
A: “EVO 3 is not going to come out soon. There are some rumors about a commercially aimed aircraft coming out as well, though like the EVO 3, there is no time line, and I do not expect either to come out this year.”
Now - they say “expect”, but I find that surprisingly strong verbiage coming directly from customer support - even going so far as to say one won’t come out “this year” when I asked if it would be “soon”.
This response put my decision to bed. Besides the fact I NEVER received a call back from Autel when I called customer service, it took over a month for them to send me an email response to my questions. I cannot believe their answer to the RID question. I’m passing on Autel altogether - and I was excited about joining the community.
I don’t even understand what their plan is to sell drones after September 2022 if they don’t expect Evo 3 to come out this year and they don’t plan on making current models compliant with RID regulations.
I’m glad you guys enjoy the fact these drones are not geofenced, but after talking to a number of DJI users who own their own drone businesses, they have laughed about my geofencing concerns. Most seem to be able to get authorization in minutes if not hours in restricted areas, and if it is more complicated, they have a very wide range of time provided to fly… but that’s just what I’ve been told and I don’t live in some huge metropolis where there is likely far stricter requirements.
I sincerely hope that this rep was wrong and Autel comes out swinging - but I’m not putting my money on that horse.
1. I asked about firmware/software updates regarding RID and whether they would stand behind their current models (evo 2 pro).
A: “The responsibility will fall to the pilot to purchase a product module before Sep 2023 for any currently existing models. Future products manufactured after Sep 2022 will be equipped with Remote ID, legacy models will not.”
This is unacceptable to me. Skydio says directly on their site that they will meet this requirement with a software/firmware update. DJI already has it covered on some drones - so they say. I don’t quite understand this tech myself, but I’m confused how you guys are discussing the fact that it’s impossible to retrofit drones when other companies have promised to comply - or in a few cases for DJI - the company says they are already technically compliant. If it’s a matter of accuracy, I think that’s nonsense. The accuracy we see on a screen while flying is accurate enough for the intent of this law (I would assume).
2. I actually asked when Evo 3 was coming out - and I told them I didn’t actually expect an answer but that rumors were abounding.
A: “EVO 3 is not going to come out soon. There are some rumors about a commercially aimed aircraft coming out as well, though like the EVO 3, there is no time line, and I do not expect either to come out this year.”
Now - they say “expect”, but I find that surprisingly strong verbiage coming directly from customer support - even going so far as to say one won’t come out “this year” when I asked if it would be “soon”.
This response put my decision to bed. Besides the fact I NEVER received a call back from Autel when I called customer service, it took over a month for them to send me an email response to my questions. I cannot believe their answer to the RID question. I’m passing on Autel altogether - and I was excited about joining the community.
I don’t even understand what their plan is to sell drones after September 2022 if they don’t expect Evo 3 to come out this year and they don’t plan on making current models compliant with RID regulations.
I’m glad you guys enjoy the fact these drones are not geofenced, but after talking to a number of DJI users who own their own drone businesses, they have laughed about my geofencing concerns. Most seem to be able to get authorization in minutes if not hours in restricted areas, and if it is more complicated, they have a very wide range of time provided to fly… but that’s just what I’ve been told and I don’t live in some huge metropolis where there is likely far stricter requirements.
I sincerely hope that this rep was wrong and Autel comes out swinging - but I’m not putting my money on that horse.
the short answer is we already knew evo 3 was not happening this year; no surprise. also nobody knows for sure what will happen exactly with rid. at this point, i wouldnt put any stock into anything said by anyone.
Yea
And “we already knew that” is certainly your opinion with rumors of release last October - especially with September requiring a product with different capabilities.
I simply don’t buy that. This is 5 months away. Maybe a year ago I would have believed you, but not 5 months out.
And “we already knew that” is certainly your opinion with rumors of release last October - especially with September requiring a product with different capabilities.
your answers might be located around the 21 minute mark but feel free to watch the entire video for more details and context:
Interesting video. I would say two things regarding RID.
1. He said his engineers assured him they were futureproof. The other guy added firmware/software update. So, I’m not convinced that they are set on how to make them compliant. The person I got in touch with said they would be made compliant by purchasing a module. That means they would also be “futureproof”.
2. If you take his acceptance of the hosts comment to be agreement instead of avoiding the question - then I’m even more put off that they can’t get their RID story straight.
I’m sorry, I’m a patch of sour grapes after my hopes were crushed. I just posted to provide some additional points for those interested in the rumor mill. I’m not trying to sway anyone. I just am not investing in this format at this point. Maybe in the future when they figure things out.
Dave Pitman
Well-Known Member
Like everyone else, I have no knowledge of what Autel's thoughts or plans are regarding RID. But, If who ever responded to you is correct that Autel would not be providing a firmware update to implement RID on existing craft. Then after Sept. 16, 2022, Autel will basically be selling all their craft only for the sole purpose for use within a FRIA area (in the US anyway). That would basically be the end of Autel Robotics.
The FAA requirements for a "Standard Remote ID Drone" is that it must broadcast the following message elements:
- A unique identifier for the drone. Operators of a Standard Remote ID Drone may choose whether to use the drone's serial number or a session ID (an alternative form of identification discussed below that provides additional privacy to the operator) as the unique identifier;
- An indication of the drone's latitude, longitude, geometric altitude, and velocity;
- An indication of the control station's latitude, longitude, and geometric altitude;
- A time mark; and
- An emergency status indication.
It doens't matter to me at all if anyone buys an Autel drone or not. But, think about it. Which of these 2 options seems more realistic for Autel to take? In the end, we'll have to just wait and see.
100% agree. The part that folks disagree on is whether it’s POSSIBLE to make it available with a firmware update - which I did (and still do) assume is the case - even though people on here think it’s not possible.
This is why I was so shocked by their response to my question. Maybe it isn’t possible with the tech evo 2 is using.
I expected a standard “Our products and customers are our top priority. We stand behind and support our community and our team is working hard to have a firmware release to be in compliance with the law.” Much like other companies have said. Not at all what they told me.
I hope you’re right. Competition is good!
This is why I was so shocked by their response to my question. Maybe it isn’t possible with the tech evo 2 is using.
I expected a standard “Our products and customers are our top priority. We stand behind and support our community and our team is working hard to have a firmware release to be in compliance with the law.” Much like other companies have said. Not at all what they told me.
I hope you’re right. Competition is good!
Concerning the retrofit of RID to existing craft, Autel is unlikely to commit to engineering a hardware and firmware solution to a problem that does not now and will not ever exist-- for them. What they need to do to remain compliant with FAA regs is to include RID on new aircraft sold beyond Sep 16, 2022. What you as a flyer need to do to be legal with an existing aircraft that does not have RID built in is to retrofit it with a module by Sep 2023. That compliance date is more than 16 mos from now. The tack-on modules will be the elegant solution for end-users here. Look to the folks who are already making strobe lights that velcro to your drone shell for inspiration as to what great things may yet come in small and relatively inexpensive packages.
(Nobody's selling them yet so anybody suggesting it's only going to set you back a $20 bill is speculating. But if today a strobe costs ~$30, and tomorrow a strobe with an RID circuit board tucked inside is available for $50, then it might prove so, but anything good for <$100 would not be unreasonable. Don't expect the cheapest Chinese chip-dumping manufacturers to get out in front with this-- or that they get instant FCC approval-- but by the time you need a module to be compliant, expect cheap competition.)
Concerning the requirement of RID going forward beyond 9/16/2022, Autel either will be ready to go with it or they will be out of the US marketplace. They're a private company and hard figures are elusive but it's not a stretch to see they've already bitten off a large chunk of DJI's market share. They would be fools to squander that opportunity by not adding an RID circuit
(Nobody's selling them yet so anybody suggesting it's only going to set you back a $20 bill is speculating. But if today a strobe costs ~$30, and tomorrow a strobe with an RID circuit board tucked inside is available for $50, then it might prove so, but anything good for <$100 would not be unreasonable. Don't expect the cheapest Chinese chip-dumping manufacturers to get out in front with this-- or that they get instant FCC approval-- but by the time you need a module to be compliant, expect cheap competition.)
Concerning the requirement of RID going forward beyond 9/16/2022, Autel either will be ready to go with it or they will be out of the US marketplace. They're a private company and hard figures are elusive but it's not a stretch to see they've already bitten off a large chunk of DJI's market share. They would be fools to squander that opportunity by not adding an RID circuit
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It’s not an “elegant solution” to have a nob attached to your drone by law.
The point you make about it not being their problem is exactly what it sounded like to me. Which is why myself and the dozen or so other operators won’t be supporting them by purchasing Autel drones. We were considering a fleet. I think it becomes their problem at that point when they begin to lose market share when it’s “not their problem”.
No one knows. And it’s clear on here you have people saying they definitely will have a firmware update and definitely can’t or won’t. That lack of vision, transparency, and assurances for their customer is what is wrong with the company + the month wait time for customer service.
Dave Pitman
Well-Known Member
Autel really should get in front of this. Even DJI is being more forthcoming about their intentions.
From DJI's blog.
viewpoints.dji.com
From DJI's blog.
FAA Remote ID: What it Means for You and Your DJI Drone
As drones became more common, governments around the world have developed rules to encourage safe and productive drone flights while protecting airplanes and helicopters in the air as well as people and property on the ground. Now, a big part of the new era of drone regulation is about to take...
viewpoints.dji.com
Dave Pitman
Well-Known Member
There is a problem with this approach by Autel. Aside from the Dragonfish, the Evo2 Enterprise/ Evo2 Pro v.2 is their flagship drone. If it does not comply as being a Standard Remote ID equipped craft in Sept, then it's sales will end in Sept (in the US). That would be a 1 year run for the Evo2 v.2 family. Since Autel is not officially saying that compliance will be achieved with a FW update, then we cannot count on it. But, say if Autel were to sell these craft all the way until Sept. 15th 2022 and then have a "new" Evo2 v.2+ (and similar "+" model versions of the Nano and Lite) on Sept. 16, leaving the current batch of "current" models to fend for themselves, that would, in my opinion, be the end of Autel Robotics except for maybe toy drones.
Autel does need to get in front of this or sales will continue to fall as Sept approaches. The Enterprise kits range from $4k to $12k. Those sales are not going to be made without some official words from Autel. Again, my opinion only.
I would add that I expect that Autel dealers (@advexure ) are already telling their reps this. Of course, Autel doesn't listen to common sense much of the time, from what I hear, which is unfortunate.
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i don't know about everyone else but here's how i understand it:
"New drones introduced to the market after September 2022 that are designed to comply with Remote ID must include the FAA’s approved Remote ID technology, and DJI of course plans for models released after that time to have Remote ID built in."
The Autel Evo2 drone variants were introduced to the market before September 2022 more precisely in 2021 and 2022. Therefore the above statement does not apply to any Evo2 variant. Nowhere does it say anywhere in the law about prohibiting drone sales or pulling drones from the market or grounding drones in September 2022 which do not fall under this designation. From what I can tell, you cannot launch a drone after September 2022 unless it is RID compliant. Does this mean FCC? This will effectively start the clock to decrease the enormous flow of non-RID complaint drones that are flooding the market over the next 5 months.
"All drones that are flown outdoors, unless exempt, must perform Remote ID by one year later, in September 2023...."
This is the date in which all non-compliant drones (without an exemption) will be tagged as ineligible to fly without restrictions. This includes the Evo 2 as well as all other drones flying today. At that time, no manufacturer should be selling new model non-complaint drones to the public since one year ago but old model non-compliant drones may still be sold. Non-compliant drones must seek an exemption or an external solution else face restrictions.
As we all know, full compliance is unattainable, enforcement is impossible, and for sure the flying public simply will likely not comply. There is a huge market for used (non-compliant) drones and we will have no choice but to offer sweeping exemptions if this external solution is not achieved.
Otherwise, this becomes a huge legal issue and we can let the courts decide. <---- the method I would prefer.
"New drones introduced to the market after September 2022 that are designed to comply with Remote ID must include the FAA’s approved Remote ID technology, and DJI of course plans for models released after that time to have Remote ID built in."
The Autel Evo2 drone variants were introduced to the market before September 2022 more precisely in 2021 and 2022. Therefore the above statement does not apply to any Evo2 variant. Nowhere does it say anywhere in the law about prohibiting drone sales or pulling drones from the market or grounding drones in September 2022 which do not fall under this designation. From what I can tell, you cannot launch a drone after September 2022 unless it is RID compliant. Does this mean FCC? This will effectively start the clock to decrease the enormous flow of non-RID complaint drones that are flooding the market over the next 5 months.
"All drones that are flown outdoors, unless exempt, must perform Remote ID by one year later, in September 2023...."
This is the date in which all non-compliant drones (without an exemption) will be tagged as ineligible to fly without restrictions. This includes the Evo 2 as well as all other drones flying today. At that time, no manufacturer should be selling new model non-complaint drones to the public since one year ago but old model non-compliant drones may still be sold. Non-compliant drones must seek an exemption or an external solution else face restrictions.
As we all know, full compliance is unattainable, enforcement is impossible, and for sure the flying public simply will likely not comply. There is a huge market for used (non-compliant) drones and we will have no choice but to offer sweeping exemptions if this external solution is not achieved.
Otherwise, this becomes a huge legal issue and we can let the courts decide. <---- the method I would prefer.
Dave Pitman
Well-Known Member
Your understanding may be correct. But, if a model is already on the market before 9/22 and the manufacturers can keep selling it. There is not language anywhere that says they couldn't keep selling it beyond 9/23 either. It would be solely on the operator to comply by some means on 9/23 even if they purchased the kit new from the manufacturer the day before, or, even 6 months after 9/23. You could purchase a drone new from the manufacturer that will need you to do something before you could legally fly it on day one. In that case, Evo2's might be produced for years to come sans RID.
Not confusing at all, right?
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yeah, not confusing at all. i hear ya.
manufacturer and merchants can "sell" anything. pretty sure they can still repair, etc. the way i read it, manufacturers can no longer gain approval on non-compliant product after 9/2022. autel is not seeking approval on evo2 drones. however, is it likely they will be seeking approval on evo3 drones soon and if that happens after 9/2022 then one of the conditions necessary to gain approval will be rid compliance. the way i see those dates, not as hard and fast deadlines, but the starting date to begin a process of reducing availability and building up to full compliance over the "years."
is it possible on 9/2023 to revoke, suspend, or somehow terminate a product's "approval" which may prevent the official sale...i guess that is possible. but that wouldn't make sense if there is a 3rd party external solution available. private parties will allows be able to trade, that can never be prevented short of a recall.
agreed, this is going to fall upon the operator.
this is what happens when government gets involved.
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